Very close round 1 is Mace, 2 is Vader, 3 is either way. "Reality is, Shatterpoint Mace is fodder." Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. Twin Suns was WIS+CIS. Yes he is George Lucas stated he he above him and would have killed ROTS Sidious. As soon as Mace sank into Vaapad, he effortlessly stomped Vastor in their first fight. Anakin is just a better saber fighter plain and simple. The fact that Vader was rival of ROTJ Sidious who is more powerful than ROTS Sidious. Mace Windu: Then you know what I’m saying? To add on to what you said Mace was able to react and defend himself against a force push from Palpatine whilst snapped out of Vaapad kind of cementing his status as a tier 8 bordering 9 compared to the other tier 8s. " Anakin is still more powerful, because his power is greater. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. The thrill. during their first fight vastor make the Master work for a win nearly stomping him,it's right before the end of the book that mace wins. @shootingnova: Also, I know this is an old post I'm replying to but. Powered by treachery, the Sith Master–apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. every source states that Anakin was overwhelming Obi-wan throughout the fight. Suffering had birthed insight. Mace takes sabers, Vader takes round 2 however the all out can go either way but I have to favor Mace as Vader just simply isnt coming out the gates dominating in the force. Even if he is an 8 bordereing a 9, Pre-Suit Vader is a monster who's arguably on par with Yoda and Palpatine. Va. Mace Windu wins! A clear example of this is how he humiliated Maul in Rebels, when back in the clone wars they were a straight up match. Nothing in that quote often used to hype Ben's growth has anything to do with combative prowess, just spiritual enlightenment and growth as a character, it doesn't preclude him being past his combative prime and being "too old for this sort of thing" by ANH. 'Let's see the impression my boot makes on your face.' 'Impressed yet?' This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor pelek's swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. @deutschkurzhaar: Ahsoka was faster but Vader has really good defense and so it didn't matter. Because it's not legitimate material. @americanspeeddemon: Well, ill respect your opinion. It can’t be that same situation this is so many years later. what force feats do Mace have that put him on Vader level? vader wins. That's what Siths do! further backed up by the fact vader is later confirmed by lucas to be 80% percent of sidious: “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. It was only short for stylistic reasons not because post prime Maul is in post prime Kenobi’s stomping range. Vader has better feats,accolades, and scaling. Once Vastor was able to recover and get his senses back Mace wasn't faster than him any more. @americanspeeddemon: If were talking about the time when he was living on Tatooine, so he could protect Luke if need be. Obi-wan did well against Anakin because Anakin was mentally unbalance. "And? It was a state of mind. And while Anakin might be somewhat stronger and resistant, due to being younger, the difference is too small to even the odds. Mace Windu may also be on the same tier as Sidious depending on how you interpret their fight. and after 19 years only his lightsaber skill was diminished but his strenght in the force was quite strong to actually give fear to the dark lord of the sith, if your using resurrection as a validable mean to actually claim that then no vader grow considerably during that timeframe. Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. Changes nothing. Mace stayed with him, pinning him to the akk's flank, fists whirling through Vaapad flurries, striking not to disable or to kill, but instead to hurt: stinging flicks to soft tissue, smashing ears and nose, stabbing up under the chin. By feats Anakin might even be inferior. @americanspeeddemon: Well, if you push feats out the window and look at it realistically. Canon Mace is closer to him in dueling, but it's not enough to save him. "Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful... Vastor had power on the scale of... young Anakin Skywalker.". The fact that Sidious acknowledges Vader as his most powerful Apprentice ever. Nice attempt at low ball but this is a legends thread. He’s not that young brash kid that went into a fight with Maul out of anger for the fact his master was killed. "Believed by many Jedi to be on par with Master Yoda in his skills with the lightsaber. A Sith Lady named Darth Shaa freed him, claiming Momin as her Sith apprentice and trained him in the dark side of the Force. Re: Mace Windu & Count Dooku Vs Darth Vader (Knightfall) on March 20th 2020, 1:35 am The OP states bloodlust is on, which means we get the no Jedi restraint Mace that fought Palpatine. He sidestepped his attack, landed a knockout blow. "Anakin s scaling favors Windu" no Vader is confirmed by a dozen of OUU quotes to be>>>Rots Anakin in mace s case doesnt favor him that much considering Skywalker was already superior to him by that timeframe confirmed by gillard and Lucas himself, Not exactly besides the fight of episode 3 that tends to get misunderstood quite a Lot,in other aspect the sith lord have also quotes of him being a menace to sidious right after episode 3 and being as formidable as the latter by the time of ESB, Disney/Marvel showing his enormous "respect" for Mace Windu, In a trailer of 2 minutes of Clone wars, Windu appears less than 1 second in a scene with Obi wan. Also Ahsoka has feats against Grievous and Ventress to scale to. He couldn't do the same when Vastor was crushing the life out of him in a bear hug. Against Mace Windu, whose entire fighting style is designed around fighting Darksiders, Anakin isn't overpowering zilch. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 'Want to be impressed?' If we go by George Lucas Updated Canon before he sold his rights...Vader in force powers is above ROTS Anakin. His true power comes from scaling and accolades. Vader has a slower fighting style but he is by no means slow especially in reactions. I don't have a stake in this debate but since I love the Vaster vs Mace fight I'm going to chime in. So I guess Mace being unable to react to Sidious' initial attack, then getting driven back and held at blade point by Sidious, who for some reason decides not to stab through him equates to Mace stomping? @americanspeeddemon: Did you just use the old obi wan vs Vader fight as an example?? SW Callouts (sorry if you're mentioned twice or uninterested): @[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected][email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@thevivas @ec[email protected]_stf123 @[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected], I think mace wins 1, but vader takes the rest. @kilius: I don't think this necessarily contradicts anything i said. Yes. @firelordiroh: sidious scaling acolytes scaling and Anakin scaling. Samuel L. Jackson was a well-known character actor before his breakthrough with Pulp Fiction and has since become one of the most popular actors in the world. Grievous's punches dent starfighter hulls and we have seen Vader punch people before. Even in Disney Canon it's implied in ANH that Kenobi is post-prime: "I'm getting to old for this sort of thing" "Your powers are weak old man". By the time of ROTS they are either equal or get a slight edge over the other. Though i think Ben's feats against Vader and Maul are still fair. Well a freshly suited Vader did ragdoll Sidious... Yeah, obviously Sidious wouldn't be able to break free from it like Kirak did. Obi wan was wayyyyyyy out of practice.. and, well.. old. Padawan level, if that. Darth Vader beat the Emperor in the end, using one of his own tactics he witnessed decades before with Mace Windu. Cylo was a master of combining electronics and technology with the Force. Mace has said some questionable things before as well like Depa being a better duelist than him. Trying to deny its effectiveness against Vader would be ignorance and false. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. E.G., Anakin has more raw power than Obi-Wan, but the latter has a greater knowledge of the Force. Writers can get away with a lot of idiocy. Then Mace punches Kar in the nose twice before the latter could even blink: "A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. And his lightsaber combat was a lot better as Anakin, his suit made him slow and clunky. The story was written by Ron Marz, with pencils by Rick Leonardi, inks by Terry Austin, letters by Steve Dutro and colors by Raúl Treviño. "besides the statement of You gotta be yoda or mace to face sidious what are other sources that put mace at the same level as palps that are backed by C canon source material?". When he was still recovering from the solar plexus shot. Agility vs Strength. "gillard/lucas tiering system this refers to pre suit Vader being a tier 9 mace is only 8 bordering nine" Mace was stated as a 9 during the Making of Revenge of the Sith as well which was under Lucas's jurisdiction. Mace could have gone after him but by then Vastor would have recovered. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. Anakin>Vader so, Windu>Anakin = Windu>Vader. To add to what I've said. Mace has said a lot of questionable things in the past. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. "2-fact file of the Empire strikes back that puts him as formidable as him" As formidable as who? Mace is a superior duelist, but Vader is stronger in the force. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Mace has been stated numerous times during that time period to be only second to Yoda. Soon after, he witnessed the same hooded figure assault Mace Windu with a torrent of Force lightning. Vader is above a weaker Vastor who is only above a version of Mace who is vastly inferior to 22 bby Asajj Ventress. © 2021 GAMESPOT, A RED VENTURES COMPANY. @lord_tenebrous: ok then memory failed me this time too long since i read the novel maybe like 3 years ago, why do you think its not legitimate material? He didn't land the knockout blow cleanly or he would have been knocked out. I'd say he wins in a good fight, though it's not a stellar contest that Mace actually could win for a majority. And Kenobi wanted him to kill him either way. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. Samuel L. Jackson thoroughly believes his Star Wars character Mace Windu is still alive, and here's how he thinks he survived. Once Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the black-cloaked Darth Sidious has fulfilled his masterful plan and taken control of the entire galaxy, with the equally formidable Dark Lord of the Sith by his side. Windu in a close fight. @deutschkurzhaar: I don't think Vader is significantly worse. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Raw power is just another term for your pure power" Sorry my wording was off but I meant pure power as in Anakins potential. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn't made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him. Anakin scaling works in Windu's favor I'm afraid not Vader's, same goes for Sidious. Mace Windu: Say “what” again! I haven't read the novel but I've heard Mace was hindered by a injury and dark side nexus when he fought his brother. Whereas most lightsabers are either blue, green, or red, the purple lightsabers stand out as a noted exception to the pretty standard rules of Star Wars . Vader was once the esteemed Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker, whose unparalleled midichlorian count labeled him as the Chosen One destined to bring balance to the Force. '', “This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. However, the numerous tragedies he suffered during his service to the Jedi Order in the Clone Wars took their toll on Skywalker, making the young knight desperate to find a way to protect his lover Padme Amidala. So in speed Vader equals mace if not faster than him. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”, -- Star Wars: The Last Battle, Vanity Fair Magazine, 2005, "vastly pre prime obi wan" you know kenobi achieved his prime during rots right? Still, it describes him as being distracted for a moment and we all know what happens to force users or anyone for that matter when distracted or with their guard down. As good as they are, Palpatine made short work of them. For 22 years he was in lock step with Sidious and grew in power along with Sidious. And during this time he actually hadn't touch his lightsaber in years, for an exception of saving Luke from certain threats only a couple times, including maul, otherwise they were fodder, like sand people. @deutschkurzhaar: old obi wan was younger than count dooku, qui gon, yoda, sidious. And obviously he was gaining more knowledge of the force. @deutschkurzhaar: Anakin had more potential but he never reached it. Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, only indication that he lose his ability to overthrow the emperor not a clue of actual overall power fam, besides the statement of You gotta be yoda or mace to face sidious what are other sources that put mace at the same level as palps that are backed by C canon source material? Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. A) That's literally the same writer who wrote Shatterpoint, B) Both Mace and Agen Kolar have said this, because they're working from the PoV that Anakin genuinely soloed Dooku, something Yoda and Mace have repeatedly failed to do. Vader isn't all Anakin could be but he's more than or at least equal to how Anakin was. I discuss who I think might come out on top. Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master. A force push is a force push. 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